In another paragraph the report goes even further: “We urge Anglicans and Roman Catholics to explore together how the ministry of the Bishop of Rome might be offered and received in order to assist our Communions to grow towards full, ecclesial communion.”
From an article on the current attempt to unify the Anglican and Catholic churches.
Interesting, Pat. I believe the new Pope has also tried to carry on what the last Pope did in making overtures to the Eastern Orthodox church to make peace. As you know, when we started out at the close of the '60's there was a lot of fundamentalist resistance to the World Council of Churches and Ecumenism as a "tool of the devil."
When I first began to sense an urgency, in intercession, by the Spirit about peacemaking, I wondered about ecumenism. When I've watched the Catholic channel, at times, I've heard them, underneath all the rhetoric, allude to the "unity" that can only be realized by returning to the "Mother Church," which is, of course, Catholicism. But the basic dispute between the Roman and Eastern churches had to do with the preeminence of the Pope and also that the Orthodox claim originality, that is, that they are the true church because they are most closely connected to the primitive church. When you read about the 7 churches in Revelation, that were in the area of Turkey, you are talking about the origins of the Orthodox church. I don't see these differences dissolving easily or completely. But I think that cooperation between all these bodies would be great. However, if the Catholics insist on making the Pope the boss, it will fail. That means everyone has to come under the umbrella of Catholicism.
So I see this as symbolic of the desire of the Holy Spirit that we return to the unity of the faith, which is different than ecumenical unity. We are, for instance, the United States; but all the individual states are different. God is not trying to bring us all into one single expression of faith. Look at creation. He loves diversity. What He does want us to do is to recognize that we are not enemies because of our different approaches. There is only ONE FAITH, and it is not Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, or Pentecostal in particular. All of that is passing away. They are foundations of sand, in that sense.
"Catholic" means "universal." So it is at the core of their self-image that they are the real thing. That is the importance of the post-modern shift in thinking in the world. Nobody is the "real thing," not even Coke. It isn't like U2 sang: "I still haven't found what I'm looking for." The Christian community, in all its facets, has what it is looking for. That community alone stands for the essential truth, which is that Jesus Christ is Lord, the Savior and God of the cosmos. That is the message the world needs most. For there is no other name.... No other religion has this feature. Thus, all other religions are trying to get to heaven the long way, as Pat once sang before he saw the Light.
But the devil has us all in opposition over incidentals: how we baptize, how we conduct worship, how we pray, attitudes about sex, politics, charisma, even theology. And we can't see our forest for the trees. We are nit-pickers about our religious biases and camel-swallowers about our superiority. And we do it all in the pursuit of "purity," puritanism.
That may be a laudable goal, but the Devil has turned it into a travesty.
"Little children (church), love one another." That phrase rings in my head like the bells of Notre Dame. I applaud the moves of any clergy to build bridges, especially if it brings repentance for past sins and forgiveness that aids communal prayer. But what the Holy Spirit will do is beyond all that. There is a dismantling of absolutes going on at increasing speed. When all absolutes dissolve, only one truth will remain, and His name is Jesus.
In that sense, the old organized church is probably in trouble. It is not disappearing, but neither is it leading its own revolution. The revolution is moving here, out in cyberspace.
This is no-holds-barred ideaville. The globe is shrinking fast. Rigid systems are coming apart at the seams. Even science doubts itself now. The modernists are resisting with all their might, but it is like a poodle-dog barking at a freight train. The wild frontier of the church is now missional. My pastor just yesterday said: "God is not into maintenance, but mission." But you know me: its always both ~ maintenance and mission. But I understand also that when something becomes obsolete, it's time to get a new rig.
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9 comments:
Deal Alan,
Here is another thought on all that. What if Rome is the mother of Harlots and false religion. The Angel of Light appearance of the devil. What if it and all like her are just fakes of the real thing. Just because all the world speaks well of something may make it an abomination to the Lord. Who are we to please God or man. Jesus was part of the religious system. He tried to get people out of it for the most part. I.e The father seeks such as to worship him in Spirit and in truth. he said the time is coming when you nor the Jews will worship on this mountain. A paradigm shift from temple to Body. The church may be just us who believe came they Catholic, Baptist Methodist Assemble of God. Those names maybe the harlot but the true believer comes out from among them not to participate in their sins. All this made up stuff they call church is man centered and flesh centered not God centered. Bowing to statues of angles making God three instead of one, Baptizing in three names when acts did it one names. I could go on for hours. No one of these amounts to much of a transgression but as Israel added the gods of the peoples of the land who took them over so has Christians added the gods of this world to the only true God and His son Jesus Christ. Hear a little there a little. bit by bit after the our pouring on the day of Pentecost devouring wolves came in to destroy the work. I believe the modern day church is a result of those wolves.On the bright side I know God will not leave himself without witness. He has always had some who went beyond the the doctrine of the day and would not accept what the dead church was feeding them. Truth marches on. I am convinced God is not with any of the big denomination of today. He is still with his people that may be in these but He is not part of the hierarchy of any of them. Jesus loves His sheep I am not sure of the so called churches that use His name. Yea I am better than them as a matter of fact. For one reason. I believe His report.
I was really trying to be nice too. Lay into me Brother. I can take it
Patric
Could she be the harlot even though I don't believe it? Yes. But, as I said elsewhere, so could a lot of other possibilities fill the bill.
Over the centuries there have been literally thousands of candidates suggested for the Antichrist. And many of those who identified the guy were as sure of their revelation as you are of yours about the Catholic Church. And they were all wrong.
I would just say that you may be clinging to a wrong idea about Catholicism. I have to have more than just a belief that the Pope is the bad guy (and which Pope would it be? Probably the guy that follows Benedict, right?)
To be an "angel of light," the Catholics would have to preach another gospel than what Paul preached. So we have to pinpoint what he meant by "gospel" or "another gospel." In other words, what is the gospel? Essentially, it is belief that Jesus Christ is the only Savior. The Catholic Church teaches this. So how can they be for Him and against Him at the same time?
Jesus said we would be one or the other. So I would have to conclude that we are on the same side. We may disagree about other things, but we're all square on the big issue.
The Protestants felt they were "coming out of her (Babylon)" by separating from Catholicism. But that is only if we are sure that organization is Babylon. We have all come out of the world through faith in Jesus Christ. That alone really separates us from the world of unbelief. In that sense, there are only two species of humanity: believers and unbelievers.
For over a thousand years there was no church in the earth but Catholicism and Orthodox. So where was Jesus then, since these were so polluted with "idols?" The 66 books you refer to as the Word of God were put together by Catholics. Do you suppose they will all go to hell? If you believed in Christ during those centuries there was no other place to go. Isn't it arrogant to believe we are better than they?
I am glad you believe His report. I do too. But that doesn't make me superior to Catholics. So there.
No, the religious systems that claim to be about God but keep Him outside of themselves and keep themselves from being one with Father. Those are the Harlot Church.
And how do they do that? By refusing the revelation of Jesus Christ, that He is the only begotten Son, that He is the firstfruit of the Kingdom, that He is very God. That's what puts you in or out: not religious 31-flavors.
Al, I have had a blog forever and you have never once left a note. I am really ticked? Let me find by rosary beads and ask a man to forgive my sins against you. Mary was not the mother of God. God was hear before Mary I think. Mary was the Mother of Jesus, The Son of God. who later became the author of eternal life. So now a little man who can't do what God intended him to do, marry and have children is going to forgive m,y sins? When you see the abomination that makes desolate stand where it ought not. Father call no man?. Many will come in my name. So naming the name of Jesus doesn't make you a Christian. The devils and Muslims do that. My allegiants is to Him not a World Church hierarchy. My eyes are on Him Brother. If I am wrong and I may be he will show me. Like I said before I am not saying that any people are not Christ followers. They may sure do it better than me but I am convinced that none of the Christian denominations are His church. They may be tribes and I am completely wrong but if they are tribes then they have gone a whoring after the world just like the 12 tribes of Jacob.
So there. Put that in your incense burner and smoke it.
I haven't left a comment in yours? Sorry. I hope to get better at this. Just a couple replies to your bombastic denial of denominations. Catholic theologians, to my knowledge, do not believe she is mother to God the Spirit. That makes no sense. It has a mystical application for them, and is confusing. I think you've heard all the crap that certain Protestants and Evangelicals have thrown at Catholics, and, not being skeptical of those things, believe what you have heard.
I'm going to back off, myself, from saying denominations have gone a-whoring any more than non-denominations. But I'll go this far with you: the various organizations are not the Church organism itself. We can regard them as members in particular. The cement that glues the ecclesia together IS belief in Christ. That's what we are all about. So what if you don't do it like me?
I'm going to post a recent lyric by Pete Townshend about this. And I'm going to spout on your blog too. My bad. Al E. Cat
Senior Al,
I opened back my book by Maria Woodworth Here is a linkEhttp://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/199901/086_woodsworth_etter.cfmtter.
The book I am reading is actully a collection of much of her material. It gives a lot of testamony of all that God began both to do and to teach through Her. She was at a another level. She had a big revival in Topeka before Parham. Check it out.
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